You have no idea how from the heart this blog is, because I'm me and all:
I teach kids and can tell in a few cases by the over-the-top change in their posture whenever I have to ask them to stop talking or playing games or whatever, that they come from homes in which adults criticize constantly, unfairly and oppressively. All I need is for the kid to put her iTouch away for the next forty minutes, and she thinks I need her to recognize that she is clearly a horrible person who will never amount to anything, and that once she has listened (to what she assumes will be a long lecture on how she is a horrible person) then of course I will not ask for anything good out of her, and will let her just sit playing games on her iTouch, as she's not going to be amounting to anything anyway. Some kids, of course, if you say "You need to put that away" simply flash a "You caught me!" sheepish smile, and put the device away, self-esteem undiminished. That's how it works at their house. There is reproof, and there is the understanding that it isn't a big deal, and there is forgiveness.
Others, though, tense right up, preparing for outright character assassination, because they're used to that, and don't expect there to need to be anything in particular that they did which brought the lecture on. The only kids who tempt me to really come down hard are the ones who, when asked to put away the phone they're texting on, give me the old "Why are you being an asshole? I'm just TEXTING! Now, go away!" I always assume that it might do at that juncture to point out some simple facts. Facts like that I am a teacher, they are a student, and that we are in my classroom in the school that hired me to talk to them, and that this is a point in time when they're supposed to be listening to me and doing as I ask so I can do my job and let the government know how they're doing.
I teach kids and can tell in a few cases by the over-the-top change in their posture whenever I have to ask them to stop talking or playing games or whatever, that they come from homes in which adults criticize constantly, unfairly and oppressively. All I need is for the kid to put her iTouch away for the next forty minutes, and she thinks I need her to recognize that she is clearly a horrible person who will never amount to anything, and that once she has listened (to what she assumes will be a long lecture on how she is a horrible person) then of course I will not ask for anything good out of her, and will let her just sit playing games on her iTouch, as she's not going to be amounting to anything anyway. Some kids, of course, if you say "You need to put that away" simply flash a "You caught me!" sheepish smile, and put the device away, self-esteem undiminished. That's how it works at their house. There is reproof, and there is the understanding that it isn't a big deal, and there is forgiveness.
Others, though, tense right up, preparing for outright character assassination, because they're used to that, and don't expect there to need to be anything in particular that they did which brought the lecture on. The only kids who tempt me to really come down hard are the ones who, when asked to put away the phone they're texting on, give me the old "Why are you being an asshole? I'm just TEXTING! Now, go away!" I always assume that it might do at that juncture to point out some simple facts. Facts like that I am a teacher, they are a student, and that we are in my classroom in the school that hired me to talk to them, and that this is a point in time when they're supposed to be listening to me and doing as I ask so I can do my job and let the government know how they're doing.
I've been thinking a great deal lately about the environment I grew up in. My family are all very...very. I've been getting my head together lately as to how they behave, and have found that my father's side of the family have some pretty predictable behaviour in conversation:
a) make an over-the-top, generalized opinion with no evidence
b) make sure no dissenting voices or other views are heard. You can agree if you like, but briefly, and not weirdly or using any words they don't like. If you disagree, this is proof that you are socially awkward, rude and in need of some kind of help with how you deal in groups. If you actually get any kind of a compelling dissenting point in, then your character is attacked harder, up to and including having your sanity questioned for not getting that doing a) is How Things Go, and that disagreeing is Not Done Because There Might Be A Fight, and Anyway, Your Wrong so Shut Up Becuase You Dont Know ANYthing.
It goes just like this (for generations upon generations, regardless of age, gender or locale):
Moore: Pacifists dont know what there talking about. Canadian soldiers have DIED and people need to shut up if they havent served there country.
Me: I think many Canadian soldiers have been sent to die by people who were willingly, cynically sacrificing their lives for really no good purpose. This is what people who were actually there felt, in what they wrote on the subject.
Moore: What?! Until youve served in the military you have no right to comment on anything about the wars or soldiers or politics or the government or anything! You can sit back in your armchair reading your books and saying whatever you want but you have no right to comment. You arent qualified to comment on it at all and should shut your mouth because your you and know nothing. Thats what my grandpa always told me anyway and its true so listen to me when I tell you it.
Me: I see how your idea of a discussion works. I'm just saying I don't trust rich and powerful men. I learned that attitude from Jesus.
Moore: And now you're comparing yourself to Jesus?! I honestly cant believe that! You need professional help. Who are you to talk anyway? Everyone knows what YOUR like! End of conversation. Thats it for me. You arent qualified to comment on it at all and should shut your mouth because your you and know nothing. Thats what my mother always told me anyway and its true so listen to me when I tell you it.
Me: Canadian WWI general Arthur Currie said...
Moore: And I don't care WHAT you read in one of your books. Just because youve read some books does NOT give you the right to talk about OUR boys who are the best in the world and not support them and criticise them. If you havent stood alongside them then what gives you the gall to criticise them right now when they truly need our support the most?! You need to shut your mouth because you dont know anything. Thats what my father always told me anyway and its true so listen to me when I tell you it.
Me: I'm not criticising them, I'm criticising the needless waste of their lives, and suggesting we need to support them by making sure they're never needlessly put into harm's way, and so on. "Friendly fire" has always been a big problem. There are numbers on record to talk about that.
Moore: Well everyone knows your an intellectual bully who wont listen and I dropped out of high school in grade 10 because my teacher was mean to me but your not qualified to comment about OUR BOYS in any war at all. You just cant. Your one of those bullying grade 10 teachers like the one who made me drop of out high school who should just shut up because they know nothing. You should be ashamed but you cant fell shame becuase your you.
Me: Well, according to our government (which I don't trust much) and recognized by our military, which I am apparently not to criticise, I am officially and professionally qualified to stand up in front of a hundred or so teenagers each day all year and explain to them what happened during the world wars, and what the people who were there had to say about things, and to share their views. Their views, overwhelmingly, were that battles like the Somme and Passchendaele were senseless, obscene losses of human life for no real reason, and that the actions of the governments during the first world war led directly to Hitler and the second world war, and that we need to be very careful we don't repeat those mistakes of the past.
Moore #2: You ARE a bully. An intellectual bully. That's what you are, clearly. You really do need to shut your mouth because you quite obviously don't know anything, as everyone well knows. That's what my father always told me and I place a great deal of stock in what my father says, as you should yours. End of conversation. That's it for me, as you are clearly incorrigible without professional help.
Moore #3: yes your a bully that's what you are and like all teachers you cant stand to here when your wrong which you are but you cant here it you need to shut your mouth because you dont know anything thats what my grandmother always told me anyway and its true so listen to me when I tell you it end of conversation thats it for me :(
Smith-Moore: Yes. Why can't you listen? You're wrong and we're right. Get professional help before it's too late.
Moore #2: You ARE a bully. An intellectual bully. That's what you are, clearly. You really do need to shut your mouth because you quite obviously don't know anything, as everyone well knows. That's what my father always told me and I place a great deal of stock in what my father says, as you should yours. End of conversation. That's it for me, as you are clearly incorrigible without professional help.
Moore #3: yes your a bully that's what you are and like all teachers you cant stand to here when your wrong which you are but you cant here it you need to shut your mouth because you dont know anything thats what my grandmother always told me anyway and its true so listen to me when I tell you it end of conversation thats it for me :(
Smith-Moore: Yes. Why can't you listen? You're wrong and we're right. Get professional help before it's too late.
Moore: You need profesional help. Everyone knows. You teachers are all bullies. You have no right to talk about military stuff. End of conversation. Thats it for me. You need to just shut up. Thats what my uncle always told me anyway and its true so listen to me when I tell you it. I cant take ennymoore of this so im leaving. You should be ashamed to act this way. Thats it for me im done
Me: I have sought professional help. His assessment was that I had no serious problems apart from making myself and others miserable (in the manner of, apparently, all of my relatives), by obsessively and continually pointing out every person and every thing that I ever think is "wrong" in any way, and then having that done back to me, and not being able to handle emotionally anyone thinking I'm wrong about something or saying I don't get to talk, which seems to be a problem with all of us, even the rest of you who aren't teachers.
Moore #4: I saw a professional one time, too. She told me a bunch of things, but she never asked me first what she should have asked me, which was "Do I care what she thinks?" which I didn't. Professionals know nothing. So that's that.
Moore: You need to shut up about us and about stuff you dont know about. You should just shut up because you know nothing. That's what my wife tells me and its true. We all need to shut up if we dont know anything.
Moore #2: Yes. You're wrong, so you need to shut up. And seek professional help.
(and on and on, for a needless amount of time, like the precise opposite of C.S. Lewis' dufflepuds in The Voyage of the Dawn Treader)
Me: I have sought professional help. His assessment was that I had no serious problems apart from making myself and others miserable (in the manner of, apparently, all of my relatives), by obsessively and continually pointing out every person and every thing that I ever think is "wrong" in any way, and then having that done back to me, and not being able to handle emotionally anyone thinking I'm wrong about something or saying I don't get to talk, which seems to be a problem with all of us, even the rest of you who aren't teachers.
Moore #4: I saw a professional one time, too. She told me a bunch of things, but she never asked me first what she should have asked me, which was "Do I care what she thinks?" which I didn't. Professionals know nothing. So that's that.
Moore: You need to shut up about us and about stuff you dont know about. You should just shut up because you know nothing. That's what my wife tells me and its true. We all need to shut up if we dont know anything.
Moore #2: Yes. You're wrong, so you need to shut up. And seek professional help.
(and on and on, for a needless amount of time, like the precise opposite of C.S. Lewis' dufflepuds in The Voyage of the Dawn Treader)
My church was just like that too. "You have no right to voice your opinion. Who are you to talk? Great men who are now long dead said Important Things We're Not Even Able To Conceive Of in these dark times, and fought for your right to believe and say what you knew from their writings to be right. Now shut up about what those old guys said because you have NO RIGHT to even quote them, let alone pretend to understand them, or we'll make you wish you had."
So, in my environment, the thing was that you didn't get to talk unless you agreed, quite respectfully and briefly, with the old men, or with whoever spoke first, which was supposed to be the oldest of the men. Otherwise, no. Not if you were a woman, not if you were young, and DEFINITELY not if you were liberal or educated. This is because the thing to do is to agree. We all have to say the same thing or shut up. We do not discuss, and we shut up or we'll "fight." It's ugly.
And now I've seen this all over the internet. Someone says something wildly opinionated, with little or no real evidence, and then if anyone says "I disagree. What about..." the next response involves:
a) a personal attack rather than any dealing with any of the points.
b) a complaint about "Don't *I* get to have an opinion?" (when what they're clearly saying is "Don't I get to have an unchallenged opinion which no one is to do anything but agree, briefly, with?")
It is almost impossible not to stupidly respond in stupid kind to that sort of thing. It is almost impossible not to get caught up in it and have a slogging criticism/abuse-fest in which you can lob in anything at all, even if you continually contradict what you said only a few lines earlier, and especially if you're guilty of what you're accusing the other people of. Often, people pull out The Big Gun, which is mentioning Hitler or the Nazis, as in "That's what the Nazis said too..." (the argument equivalent of "That's what she said..." and no less a burn rather than a genuine argument that can really go anywhere good). This, clearly, is a cheap shot, and yet it is very hard not to go there, especially when discussing, let us say, attitudes about war, soldiers, tolerance, or, in fact, the Nazis. In fundamentalist Christian circles, the Big Gun is atheism or Catholicism. "That's what Catholics say, too." (ergo, your an idoit so shut up becuase you dont no anything)
My grandfather always told me to shut up because I didn't know anything. He'd told my father the same thing. It didn't work with him either. My father told me the same thing. Here I am blogging about it anyway. No doubt my great-grandfather had told my grandfather the same thing. He continues to live out his last years spouting abuse and negative personal judgements as well. He may never have said anything supportive or kind to or about me, but he sure did tell me to shut up when I needed to be told to shut up. (like the time I decided to have a bible discussion with my friends and he said "I heard what you did! You need to SHUT UP about the bible because you don't know anything!") It didn't work, clearly, and I have this problem where, whenever anyone says a) I'm wrong and b) I need to shut up becuase c) I don't no ennything, I makes me REALLY MAD and I always seem to engage, even if it's not a good idea, like Marty McFly being called "Chicken." It's stupid, and it's a button of mine. Maybe I should simply have a button made and wear it. It would simply say "I'm wrong sometimes. Deal with it."
"O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from" [this crap]?
"O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from" [this crap]?
(there is an answer, but Who Am I to mention him, and Who Am I to try to act like him, right? Because Christianity isn't simply about repeating what Jesus said and thought and felt and did, right? It's about shutting up and submitting to the older men in your Christian community, because you dont know ennything and should shut up, right? That's what those old guys said to do, isn't it? To shut up? I clearly remember them saying that loudly and frequently to everyone when they were speaking for hours and hours on the virtue of silence. That's how it works, right, and it does work, and it makes everything better?)
14 comments:
Well, for one thing, I'd watch for signs of them screwing up stuff I screw up, and I'd tell them what's bad about doing it that way, and how much happier other people who do things differently are. But then, I do tend to focus upon the negative.
Is there a way of teaching the positive without shedding light on the negative?
Not a good way. You avoid dealing with reality only at cost to sanity. So, if you "just ignore" things you decide are "negative" (which to most people means nothing more important than "things that make me feel yucky") by "not shining light" on them, they will bite you on the ass every single time, no matter how much you've got a handle on stuff you think is "positive" ("makes me feel all nice")
Do you compete with others that try to take them away (the kids)? Or let Him sort it out?
Because you're you and all ... Your family might be more receptive if you let what cannot be changed go even if it was wrong or if nothing good can come of truth.
Recently, I noticed it might be painful to be smart. No-one likes it at first or in the long run (sometimes). There are a few who are thankful to learn though.
I don't know what you mean by "compete with others that try to take them away (the kids)?"
I need my family to leave me alone. I get pulled into stupid stuff when I get criticized. Once someone has impugned or attacked me, I stupidly have trouble dropping that. I feel, for not good reason, like a person is guilty of whatever he is accused of until he can talk his way out of it, which is, of course, untrue.
Why do you want to know if someone is guilty or not? Just curious (and this could be constructive) It makes me think of being around one of those people "with a word" and then you find yourself thinking "swee-e-t" at the end of all mildly pleasing ideas.
You misunderstand. I'm talking about irrational feelings (that *I* am guilty of whatever people decide to accuse me of, no matter who they are) that need to change, not stated positions.
Oh duh. It would be nice if people had good assumptions about others. I appreciate it when others use stories to pose questions or glean information from me. Then I can help them understand without ever feeling attacked. It's sad that as christians there will always be something to criticize with such a high standard to compare to. I would suggest letting more slide off your shoulders and sitting quietly with elders. Some people will not change.
Jesus says regarding judging -don't!The average Christian is the most penetratingly critical individual.Criticism is a part of the ordinary faculty of man; but in the spiritual domain nothing is accomplished by criticism.Criticism makes you hard, vindictive&cruel &it leaves you with the flattering unction that you are a superior person.He alone is able to show what is wrong without hurting& wounding another.~Chambers
@ Anonymous: where are you getting the idea that these relatives are older than I am?
@ Chambers: Jesus made one noteworthy exception to the judging/criticising thing (normally he did things like simply point out that a woman wasn't married to who she was living with, as a fact, not a moral judgement, or say "go and sin no more" as a command, rather than a criticism of her sin etc.): His exception to not judging the world (yet) is that he consistently judged, criticised and publicly warned against imitating the behaviour of piously religious folk, particularly ones in positions of established social and political importance. Because they hurt people. And confuse and mislead people.
Generally speaking, young men play games, watch movies and chase after the prettiest face. Middle-aged men are wrapped up in work, family and acquiring things like a home, boat or nice car bought to last long trips. Older men tend to talk much more than the former, particularly about war, politics, and God. Age status dominates group values. Usually only older people will tell someone that they know nothing (most likely to humble and encourage more listening) or an angry teenager/victim. Serving time in the army indicates age. As a matter of perspective, if the group was made up of younger people they would have been viewed as arrogant for undermining the education of the elder and the entire article would have been different. Older men will talk about their Grandpas more often (young “wise” men on TV probably play a part written by an older man or woman considering the overly entertained age we live in). Peers are less self-assured and matter of fact to one another out of fear of losing peaceful relations. You come across as the type who gravitates to the thought provoking conversations that would be easier done by a group older than you than younger. You also want acceptance. If I may say so.
Elementary! (sorry. You sound like Holmes explaining something to Watson)
Our family is too much about everyone talking and simultaneously thinking everyone else should shut up because they don't know anything. It doesn't matter which generation.
I am in middle-age, not youth.
Shut up bully ;)
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